The Absence of God

The Absence of God

A University professor at a well known institution of higher learning challenged his students with this question:

"Did God create everything that exists?"

A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!"

"God created everything?" The professor asked.

"Yes sir, he certainly did," the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything; then God created evil. And, since evil exists, & according to the principle that our works define who we are, then we can assume God is evil."

The student became quiet & did not respond to the professor's hypothetical definition. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the religious faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand & said, "May I ask you a question, professor?"

"Of course," replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"

The other students snickered at the young man's question. The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat.

Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, & heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460F) is the total absence of heat; & all matter becomes inert & incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied , "Once again you are wrong, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors & study the various wave lengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness & illuminate it. How can you know how dark of a certain space is?

You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct?

Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily examples of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime & violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it doesnot exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness & cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God.

God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

The student's name is rumoured to be Albert Einstein

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Some people say that without believing in a God there would not be a civilized society. Others say that a civilized society does not need a belief in a God. The WT has put in the minds of the jws that if you leave them, you would self-destruct. Satin will attack you and evil will be all around you. Some have prove them right. Is it because jws are programed to self-destruct and this in turn reinforces the belief? Or is it that some do it out of anger, exploration of self or that this really doesn't happen to most? Or, is it because you really need God?

The student above makes good points:

darkness is an idea to describe the absence of light

coldness is an idea to describe the absence of heat

Is evil just an idea to describe the absence of God??

The God of the bible is certainly absent in the jw org. Was there evil present with us while we were in? If being used as a slave, lied to, and held captive defines evil then hell yeah! I believe that when we escaped, we all went through stages of grief. And I believe that all ex-jws should think about the absence of God and what it means to them. Many ex-jws become atheist or agnostic as myself. Are those who find Jesus less evil than us?

The stages that I believe we all go through are:



The Kübler-Ross grief cycle


Shock stage: Initial paralysis at hearing/learning that we have been lied to.

Denial stage: Trying to avoid the inevitable.

Anger stage: Frustrated outpouring of bottled-up emotion.

Bargaining stage: Seeking in vain for a way out.

Depression stage: Final realization of the inevitable.

Testing stage: Seeking realistic solutions.

Acceptance stage: Finally finding the way forward.

Some remain in one of these stages and end up in a loop. I believe that while we are going through these stages God is absent in us until the final two stages. During the final two stages, I think we are trying to decide where we stand with our belief in God. And this is where I think we need to think about the absence of God and Einstein's understanding of it.

Pete

Lovely story. Too bad its a load of b.s..

I'm sick of the lies fed to me by the WTS. I think we all need to learn to check our sources before spreading stuff.

Lovely story. Too bad its a load of b.s..

I'm sick of the lies fed to me by the WTS. I think we all need to learn to check our sources before spreading stuff.

Good research ML. Now I know where the story came from but I hope you don't think I'm spreading BS. What they use the story for and what I'm saying are two diferent things. I'm asking if its true that God is needed in order to live a life without "evil" and the stages of grief that we go through. I'm not trying to prove or use the rumor of that of Einstein as what those other people are using it for. It is a lovely story whether Einstein said it or not. The student does make good points, however, just as evil is abstract so is God. So it can go both ways. And I still question whether religion is needed in ones life to keep us in check. Have those who found Christ less evil than Atheist? Does the absence of God (religion) allow or cause people to live immoral lives?

Pete

The problem with referencing a story like this is that you have to first acknowledge that it didn't happen. Take away the emotion around the story - it was written by someone with an agenda. After that - strip away the points being made, and discuss.

Big questions there Pete. This is how I see it -

Athiests doing good are truly good people because they're motivated by nothing other than their own heart. Whereas believers are at least partially motivated by the idea of a reward or punishment.

The question of whether god is needed to live a life without evil seems pretty ovbious. Just consider all of the people who didn't believe in god and ask yourself, did they live evil lives. Were they any worse than believers? Think of people you'd consider evil and ask if they were believers or not. Their belief in god did not stop them from doing evil things, in fact it is often the motivator.

Without that god behind them telling you to slaughter innocents, would that idea ever come up in the hearts of crusaders/jihadists?

A college class was led by an atheist professor, and every day he'd stand in front of his class and say, "Have you ever seen God?" to which nobody would answer. Then he'd ask, "Have you ever felt God?" and nobody would answer. Finally he'd ask, "Have you ever heard God?" and, like the other times, nobody would answer. He then would say, "It is obvious that there is no God."

One day a Christian student had been having an extremely bad day; her car broke down, her mother was sick, her boyfriend was out of town, and she'd gotten a bad grade on one of her exams. She had been fed up with her professor's little act every morning, so she decided to do something about it.

While the professor stood up at the beginning of class and did his thing, the student had an idea. She got up and said, "Professor, would you mind if I said something?" He said, "Of course not. This is an expressive classroom, and I think it would be fine if you spoke your mind."

The girl said to the class, "Have you ever seen our professor's brain?" and nobody answered. Then she asked, "Have you ever felt our professor's brain?" and nobody answered. Finally she asked, "Have you ever heard our professor's brain?" and, like the other times, nobody answered.

She then said, "It is quite obvious that our professor has no brain."

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I remember hearing this one a long time ago. LOL Yes there is a constant battle between those who believe in God and atheists

Pete

You made excellent points ML. But there is more to my questioning. Presently I'm at work. After work I'm going to respond. I want you to hear me out and let me know what you think because it really has to do with ex-jws who I know personally.

Pete

Will certainly hear you out. Look forward to your post.

First let me say, ML, that the story posted is not saying that it happen. It was ended by saying that it is rumor that Einstein was the student. To me rumor means unverified report or circulated story without facts to confirm its truth. The link you added had one concluding that Einstein actually was the person. That one, if posted, is misleading because there is no proof that he did. Whereas the word rumor is saying that it is not a fact but something going around without confirmed truth. There was no intention to prove or any real belief on my part that Einstein actually said this or that the person was a real person who experienced this. If I mentioned Einstein, I meant student. Many speakers begin with stories to introduce a topic and we all know that the characters are not real unless the speakers say that it is a true story in the start.

As far as any emotions or agenda that makes the story, is why I chose it to introduce my topic for discussion. Those who wrote it and circulated it had the agenda to explain why evil and God both exist. What they are trying to tell atheists is two things I believe:

1) the argument that there cannot be a God while there is evil and suffering is not valid. They say that the reason is that when God is absent the result is the evil and suffering that we see.

and

2) using the reasoning that:

• the fact that cold is an idea and was created to explain the absent of heat (which is energy and concrete
  
• the fact that darkness is an idea created to explain the absent of light ( which is energy and concrete)
  
• proves that evil being an idea shows that God is concrete like heat and light and so therefore he exist.
  

This is a false argument.

But with number 1, I do agree with to a point. This puts me between the atheist and believer which I usually find myself in. I guest this is why I?m agnostic.

The reason is that looking at the first argument brings to mind what happens to many ex-jws who leave and God becomes absent in their minds and lives. I saw this as a good discussion for all of us whether you are atheist, agnostic, or believer. Starting it with the story under the discussion ?The Absence of God? leaves it open for all to comment. But the questions I seek are complicated.

I?m not a psychologist but I am a speech pathologist and this requires dealing with all kinds of emotions. I work with the elderly in a nursing home and in a school. I?m aware of stages that people go through because I see them in those ill and in their love ones. We were trained to recognize these stages to better help our clients. When I was disillusioned with the org, I found myself experiencing these stages and now I see them in other ex-jws.




The Kübler-Ross grief cycle


Shock stage: Initial paralysis at hearing/learning (in our case) that we have been lied to.

Denial stage: Trying to avoid the inevitable.

Anger stage: Frustrated outpouring of bottled-up emotion.

Bargaining stage: Seeking in vain for a way out.

Depression stage: Final realization of the inevitable.

Testing stage: Seeking realistic solutions.

Acceptance stage: Finally finding the way forward.


I believe that the org is aware of these stages of grief also and uses them for their advantage. For example, when disillusioned one can be in the stage of anger and depression and begin to drink or use drugs. If they are out, God now being absent, there will be a snow ball effect. The org will use the belief that now that they are no longer jw Satin will use them and destroy their lives.

I know many ex-jws that have mess-up their lives before gaining control (testing stage and acceptance stage). Some have become atheist, others agnostic and others believers in something. With God Jehovah, not the cult, now absent in their lives how are they doing? Are they smoking? Practicing homosexuality? Adultery? Cursing? What do they think about the absence of God? Now that God is absent are they practicing what the bible considers evil? Some say that believing in a God gave them morals and values that they can turn to. Others say we don?t need a God. Are those ex-jws who became Christians better off than those of us who didn?t? Do we need something to give us ex-jw some kind of structure? Or mankind for that matter? Are Christian countries better off than atheist countries? These are things I think about.

Pete

Speaking about hot and cold, here is a poem I gathered from Poemhunter.com:

Hot and Cold
by Roald Dahl

A woman who my mother knows
Came in and took off all her clothes.

Said I, not being very old,
'By golly gosh, you must be cold!'

'No, no!' she cried. 'Indeed I'm not!
I'm feeling devilishly hot!'


http://www.poemhunter...

Sounds like shes steaming hot!! That poem goes perfect with this discussion Gilbert. She definitely has the absence of God fever!!

Pete