The Absence of God

One thing I've learned on my way out is that generalization should be avoided as much as possible. Everyone's experience is different. I think for some people the desire to do "bad" things is what gets them out of the organization. These aren't the people I'm looking to befriend. There are also people who leave for the right reasons - looking for "truth".

I can only really speak of my own experience. I don't believe in god - this is a new thing for me. But I feel like a much better person because I no longer judge and look down on people I don't even know. I give everyone a fair chance now starting with the assumption that they are good people, unless they prove to me otherwise. Although the bible has no authority over me, I have no desire to do any of the "bad" things forbidden in the bible. I will do some things that were forbidden as a JW: birthdays, holidays, education. But nothing "evil".

As a non-believer I don't see it as a vacuum of an absent god that needs to be filled with something (evil). This hasn't driven me to go wild since now I don't have the fear of punishment. Perhaps for some people it does, but it's not necessary.

I guess my point is that the idea that there is a good/evil balance that must be maintained is philosophical rubbish. (No offence Pete - that's just my opinion. What do I know anyway).

(Since you brought up your profession for insight on your views - I'm a computer programmer, so I look at things very logically and often overlook the emotional side of things)

ML, you'er contradicting yourself. It sounded like I pushed an emotional button when I first posted the topic and was quickly judged. When looking at why people do the things they do, it is logical to look at emotions. Unlike Dr. Spock, emotions is what makes us. In fact, We may be the only species that are driven by emotions and reasoning on this planet.

I chose my profession because I obviously wanted to help people. Thats all I do all day. It has become a habit. As an ex-jw and part of an ex-jw group that are trying to give support to those seeking, we frequently try to understand those who are searching, looking for answers, and looking to heal. We don't generalize and its true everone has a different story. But some come to us wounded from what they have gone through and are seeking answsers. In our group, we have discussions and we share stories. Some vent, some cry. Some of us are atheist, agostic, and Christian. Some got kicked out, some just walked out and we don't judge anyones past as to why or how they left. Being under mind control can cause people to go crazy. All have stories. What we have been finding is that most have gone through some kind of cycle (denial, anger, depression, self-destruction). One of our members is a pyschologist but its a support group of ex-jws and for ex-jws. We are going to have a meet-up soon. I thought I post this topic up before presenting it to the group.


Pete

I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say that I have no emotions. I just meant that sometimes I don't understand other peoples points when they're coming from an emotional decision making process. Not that this is wrong, just that people are different. I wanted you to see why I may be missing your point.

I understant that some people have a "spiritual need". Not that I can relate at all, but I think I understand.

The man who left his wife after leaving the organization - how can we really judge him? We don't have all the facts. Perhaps he's been in a bad marriage all along. Perhaps he has just gone freedom mad. I think people should be very careful about judging others, but it is fair to use some moral criteria before really accepting someone as a close friend. In this case - can we really know what the mans motivation was? Thinking that it was a lack of god's influence is a big assumption.

I think a distinction needs to be made between God's presence and Religion's presence (earthly enforcers) in the persons life.

On the other hand perhaps some people DO do the right thing for the wrong reasons while under religion's control.

Again - Big questions.

I remember when I was little, my father sensed that I was doing something wrong behind his back. He told me with a stern voice. "I may not be able to see what you are doing behind my back but God sees it!!" I think that that was the first time I really started to be under some kind of a mind control. Was I doing something behind his back? Yes. Did what he say work? Let me just say that now that I am out of the cult and reflect on those words, I see that it was a simple but effective way to keep me in check to a degree. Was there anything else that he could have said that would have had the same results on a 12 year old?

Like you ML I have no desire to change my ways. I wasn't D'F. I had found out about their lies and walked out. I'm the same Pete as I was when I was a jw except that I'm no longer under their lies, teachings and manupulations. I also now think that some things that people may consider as evil or bad is relative. So I don't think we should judge as long as it doesn't interfere with other people's rights. If a jw decides to get a divorce that is his right. Like you said, we don't know the whole story. But one thing we do know is that many of us who left have had trouble adjusting to society outside of the org. Some only knew the world of the WT. Coming out and going into the real world can be a shock. Being under mind control you knew what to do and how to behave. Once you are free, I think some don't know what to do. They may think that they are doing the right thing but are not. How do we approach such a person? Should we just let him ride it out? Or are discussion like these important?

Pete

First let me say, ML, that the story posted is not saying that it happen. It was ended by saying that it is rumor that Einstein was the student. To me rumor means unverified report or circulated story without facts to confirm its truth. The link you added had one concluding that Einstein actually was the person. That one, if posted, is misleading because there is no proof that he did. Whereas the word rumor is saying that it is not a fact but something going around without confirmed truth. There was no intention to prove or any real belief on my part that Einstein actually said this or that the person was a real person who experienced this. If I mentioned Einstein, I meant student. Many speakers begin with stories to introduce a topic and we all know that the characters are not real unless the speakers say that it is a true story in the start.

As far as any emotions or agenda that makes the story, is why I chose it to introduce my topic for discussion. Those who wrote it and circulated it had the agenda to explain why evil and God both exist. What they are trying to tell atheists is two things I believe:

1) the argument that there cannot be a God while there is evil and suffering is not valid. They say that the reason is that when God is absent the result is the evil and suffering that we see.

and

2) using the reasoning that:

• the fact that cold is an idea and was created to explain the absent of heat (which is energy and concrete
  
• the fact that darkness is an idea created to explain the absent of light ( which is energy and concrete)
  
• proves that evil being an idea shows that God is concrete like heat and light and so therefore he exist.
  

This is a false argument.

But with number 1, I do agree with to a point. This puts me between the atheist and believer which I usually find myself in. I guest this is why I?m agnostic.

The reason is that looking at the first argument brings to mind what happens to many ex-jws who leave and God becomes absent in their minds and lives. I saw this as a good discussion for all of us whether you are atheist, agnostic, or believer. Starting it with the story under the discussion ?The Absence of God? leaves it open for all to comment. But the questions I seek are complicated.

I?m not a psychologist but I am a speech pathologist and this requires dealing with all kinds of emotions. I work with the elderly in a nursing home and in a school. I?m aware of stages that people go through because I see them in those ill and in their love ones. We were trained to recognize these stages to better help our clients. When I was disillusioned with the org, I found myself experiencing these stages and now I see them in other ex-jws.




The Kübler-Ross grief cycle


Shock stage: Initial paralysis at hearing/learning (in our case) that we have been lied to.

Denial stage: Trying to avoid the inevitable.

Anger stage: Frustrated outpouring of bottled-up emotion.

Bargaining stage: Seeking in vain for a way out.

Depression stage: Final realization of the inevitable.

Testing stage: Seeking realistic solutions.

Acceptance stage: Finally finding the way forward.


I believe that the org is aware of these stages of grief also and uses them for their advantage. For example, when disillusioned one can be in the stage of anger and depression and begin to drink or use drugs. If they are out, God now being absent, there will be a snow ball effect. The org will use the belief that now that they are no longer jw Satin will use them and destroy their lives.

I know many ex-jws that have mess-up their lives before gaining control (testing stage and acceptance stage). Some have become atheist, others agnostic and others believers in something. With God Jehovah, not the cult, now absent in their lives how are they doing? Are they smoking? Practicing homosexuality? Adultery? Cursing? What do they think about the absence of God? Now that God is absent are they practicing what the bible considers evil? Some say that believing in a God gave them morals and values that they can turn to. Others say we don?t need a God. Are those ex-jws who became Christians better off than those of us who didn?t? Do we need something to give us ex-jw some kind of structure? Or mankind for that matter? Are Christian countries better off than atheist countries? These are things I think about.

Pete

Great research Pete, and most of those feelings are probably true for those who left because they no longer believed the org. was the truth. But not all who leave did it because they dident believe in it anymore. Some leave because they can`t do it anymore or had family problems or some wrong doing that caused them to be removed.Then the emotations felt are guilt, depression, anger(mostly at themselves) hopeless, negitive and untrusting. there are more but you get the point. and if you want to know if not believing in God makes you a bad person, the answer is no. Take a look at the jails sometime. They are filled with people who say they believe in God. Hell Manson claimes to be Jesus Christ. Talk about the absence of God. Rose

>> How do we approach such a person? Should we just let him ride it out? Or are discussion like these important?

Having support is very important. I'm glad you're doing this kind of analysis and hopefully you'll be able to give us all some tips on how to encourage our friends also struggling to get out.

Some leave because they can`t do it anymore or had family problems or some wrong doing that caused them to be removed.Then the emotations felt are guilt, depression, anger(mostly at themselves) hopeless, negitive and untrusting

Very true Rose. I guess we will end up concluding that the focus should be on what we do know and be supportive in the best way we know how. Anything else will just lead to a debate on whether God exist or not. I'm beginning to think that it all comes down to the mental state of the individual. It is true that many atheists are good people just like many Christians are not.

Rose, a BAC can say that those in prison never had Jesus in their heart. They need to be born again. It is also a fact that most in prison have a mental problem. We have Christians in our group so I have to look at all angles and be careful about what I say. Another thing I have a problem with is, how can you leave a cult and be a fanatic in something else.

I'm glad you're doing this kind of analysis and hopefully you'll be able to give us all some tips on how to encourage our friends also struggling to get out.

I'll ask for some tips from the guys. Thanks for the input. I'm still going to use the story on my atheist friends, though, just to get them going

Pete

I'm absent today. See you, guys, tomorrow.

i've been reading 'why we believe what we believe' by andrew newberg for over a month now: http://www.amazon.com...

to me, God is a product of the brain, and not the other way around. the brain, being hugely complex, creates it's own reality. our whole existence is in our brain, it's all we have to perceive the world. therefore we all have our own realities and our own truths. the world makes so much more sense to me understanding this.

sarah

Sarah,
I believe in that concept as well,and have been studying the law of attraction and how each of us create our own reality by our perceptions,and draws it to us like a magnet...Like I said I have been studying it,but I don't have it completely figured out yet...LOL

After I read Ekart Tolle's A new Earth,and The Power of Now...I will put Andrew newberg's book on my list,it sounds interesting.

Lisa